The long version:
The FML skill system provides booster skills that do not provide any direct benefit, but instead boost the rate at which you learn other skills. This post is my attempt to persuade you to invest in these skills, because looking around my own gameworld people are missing out on the benefits of these skills because there is a general belief that beyond the first few levels of each they are "not worth it".
An Example: I want to be a top coach in FML. To that end I plan to learn the following skills, which are probably the minimum before anyone would consider you a coach of any repute:
- Coaching level 5 (1'180'000 skill points)
- First Team Coaching level 4 (180'000 skill points)
- Youth Team Coaching level 4 (180'000 skill points)
- Mental Coaching level 4 (180'000 skill points)
- Technical Coaching level 4 (180'000 skill points)
- Physical Coaching level 4 (180'000 skill points)
- Set Piece Coaching level 4 (180'000 skill points)
- Goalkeeper Coaching level 4 (180'000 skill points)
Now let's look at the Coaching Badge skill, at level 5 you will gain a 25% boost learning for all Coaching skills. If I were to learn Coaching Badge level 5 before I begun learning my core coaching skills the total time it would take me to achieve my goal (including the time it takes to learn the Coaching Badge skill would be 62 days, 19 hrs and 59 mins. I've gained a week's worth of additional skills by taking the Coaching Badge.
On to the important question; at what point does a learinng skill break even; ie. how long after completing Learning skill x will it take me to catch up to other managers that take a short term view of the game. Answer; not as long as you probably think.
The true cost of learning skills
All learning skills have the same direct cost to learn:- Level 1 = 10'000 skill points (6 hours, 40 mins)
- Level 2 = 20'000 skill points (13 hrs 20 mins)
- Level 3 = 40'000 skill points (1 days 2 hrs 40 mins)
- Level 4 = 80'000 skill points (2 days 5 hrs 20 mins)
- Level 5 = 160'000 skill points (4 days 10 hrs 40 mins)
- Level 1 = 6 hours, 40 mins * 1500 skill points/hour = 10000 skill points "lost"
- Level 2 = 13 hrs 20 mins * 1575 skill points/hour = 21000 skill points "lost"
- Level 3 = 1 days 2 hrs 40 mins * 1650 skill points/hour = 44000 skill points "lost"
- Level 4 = 2 days 5 hrs 20 mins * 1725 skill points/hour = 69000 skill points "lost"
- Level 5 = 4 days 10 hrs 40 mins * 1800 skill points/hour = 192000 skill points "lost"
Skill point break even & profit
Now we know the cost of the learning badges let's look at how long it will take to recoup that cost and start making a skill point profit. Here I will focus on the example where the manager studies the learning skills in advance of learning the core skills in that area, because this is the only way a sensible manager would approach his skill learning. Adding up the skill point cost for each level gives us the total points cost to learn from nothing to that level of the skill; from which we can determine how long it will take to break even, and start to make a skill point profit.- Level 1 = 10'000 skill points
- Level 2 = 31'000 skill points
- Level 3 = 75'000 skill points
- Level 4 = 144'000 skill points
- Level 5 = 336'000 skill points
In 37 days and 8 hours I have replayed that 336'000 skill points, having invested a total of 1'680'000 skill points in Coaching skills in the process. Any further learning of the Coaching skills can be considered profit on my initial investment of 336'000 skill points to achieve Coaching Badge level 5.
It will not always be justifiable to study a learning skill up to level 5. Here are the break even points for all levels.
- Level 1 = 210'000 skill points (6 days @ 1575/hour)
- Level 2 = 341'000 skill points (9 days @ 1650/hour)
- Level 3 = 575'000 skill points (14 days @ 1725/hour)
- Level 4 = 864'000 skill points (30 days @ 1800/hour)
- Level 5 = 1'680'000 skill points (38 days @ 1875/hour)
Finally, an example of what not to do: You have studied Coaching Badge level 1,2,3 and 4 at the start of your careeer and then invest the 864'000 points (20 days) in Coaching skills to break even. If you then train up to Coaching Badge level 5, you will need to invest a further 4'800'000 skill points (approx 107 days worth) in new coaching skills to make up the 192'000 skill point loss before you will see any skill profit.
If you've read all that and stayed awake then you'll probably be interested in taking a peek at my Skill Planner, soon to be bolstered by the arrivial Stadium planning functions.
- Dave
Relegation Fodder, Clough
"What goes up must come down"
Nice workthrough!
ReplyDeleteYou are forgetting something though.
When you first get your 5 learning skills and then start to develop all your coaching, scouting or financial skills you will get your final skills first.
You won't however benefit from them until you finished your learning skills (a little bit more than a week per skillset).
For that reason I chose to develop at least the basic and cheap skills in the different trees.
..before getting rank 4 and/or 5 in the appropriate learning skill.
ReplyDeleteNice article - it's great to see people like you offering advice on the best way to plan skills to get the most from them.
ReplyDeletePS Great work so far on the planner as well, I hope you don't mind if I pinch the Coaching Effects panel and put it in the game :o)
Cheers
Rob
Very good first article Dave and Welcome to the team at yourfml.com
ReplyDeleteNot at all Rob, my only regret is that I cannot put it in the game myself -- I imagine FML must a bit more exciting to work on than WAS :)
ReplyDeleteI look forward to seeing it in-game, and telling everyone and anyone that will listen that it was my idea ;)
Thorstein; what you say is true. The bonus skill points lost by learning the level 1 & 2 core skills is minimal, so it can be useful to learn them upfront to begin getting some benefit from the skills from day 1.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I like to think that even 1 minute saved by having the learning skills studied at the very beginning gives me a little bit more of an edge over my rivals, and I'll take every advantage I can get ;)
Great bit of work there David, some A+ dedication.
ReplyDeleteWonder if mugs like me that chose the learning skills at startup will get the 1st stadium one free when they appear.
Hi!
ReplyDeleteI think you are defo right in principle but you may have got the numbers wrong (or I have, I cannot really tell this late at night).
However when I calculate the completion time for the approx. 68 days of coaching skills I get a lower sum for couaching 4 than for coaching 5. In fact, I do not see coaching 5 break even with coaching 4 until you hit about 120 days. Which all comes from losing the slightly more than 4 days it takes to go from coaching 4 to 5.
I may very well be wrong here, sincerely I hope so, but I cannot figure out which error I made.
All the best
Don -- Your figure of 120 days (I worked it out as 107) is what I call the "incremental break even" value for the level 5 skills.
ReplyDeleteThe incremental break even is how many days you must spend learning to justify the investment in a single skill level. However, I focus on what I call the "cumulative break even" value, whereby you study all the skills up front, tally the total loss and then aim to break even on that total loss, rather than covering just the individual loss to one level of the skill.
I work out the total points lost to learning the skill from nothing:
10000 (@1500/hour) + 21000(@1575/hour) + 44000(@1650/hour) + 69000(@1725/hour) + 192000(@1800/hour) = 336'000 skill points lost whilst learning Coaching Badge level 1-5, at varying degrees of skill point loss. I consider the skill points invested in lerning skills as worthless, as they bring no direct benefit, hence the loss per level is 100% of what could have been earned had you not bothered.
So, having lost 336'000 points from level 0 to level 5 we have a bonus of 25%, which not only repays the points lost learning level 5, but also points lost during learning 1,2,3 and 4.
To earn an additional 336'000 points with a bonus of 25% we must earn a total of 1'680'000 (1'344'000 + 336'000) points.
To prove this:
- At a rate of 1875 points/hour it will take 896 hours to earn those 1.68m points, or 37 1/3 days.
- To earn 1'680'000 points at the 1500 points/hour it would take 1120 hours, or 46 2/3 days.
- The difference being 9 1/3 days, which I hope you will find to be the time we invested in the learning skills from level 0 to 5.
It took me a while to work this out, initially I was looking at it the same way you are now, and I couldn't fathom how those higher level skills would ever be useful until I started to look at the compound benefit possible by studying the learning skills upfront.
If you still think you've spotted an error in my logic do let me know.
What I did was to calculate two scenarios:
ReplyDelete1. The time it takes to complete the proposed coaching skills first learning coaching badge level 5
2. The time it takes to complete the proposed coaching skills first learning coaching badge level 4
I find the second scenario quicker. I think the formula is (I approxed the unmodified time to 68 days and the time for learning badge level 4 to 4 days for simplicity):
t(4)= (5/6)x68 + 4 = slightly lower than 61 days
This is clearly better than the 63ish days of your example with the coaching badge 5.
Still using approximations setting the t(5) to equal t(4) I got the time to 120 days.
I am still not certain about being right here, but I cannot get why I should not stop at coaching badge 4 if I am not planning to learn significantly more than 68 days worth of skills.
All the best!
OK, I think the logic is like this. You have calculated when you start making a profit after learning learning skills. That is all fine, but just because you make a profit does not prove that it is the optimal profit, I think.
ReplyDeleteSo if you and I start at the same time and I finish learning badges after level 4 and you continue to level 5 I have earned a lot of points already. I also earned a bit of profit even. These 8 days you have to make up for, which will take a long time as you only gain the equivalent of your 5 percent units per time unit spent on coaching training (on me, that is).
So you actually do not make the optimal profit from badge 5 until you learn skills for about 100+ days.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Lennart
I think we are talking different justifications here.
ReplyDeleteMy numbers are based on justifying learning a given level of the learning skills versus just jumping straight into the core skills, and determining the point at which you catch up to the skills you lost initially.
ie. Today I have 0 learning skill and 0 skill points in that area. If I invest x skills points to get to level 5 the the learning skill, how long will it take to get to the point in the core skills where I'd be had I just started learning them on day 1.
Your numbers match my "Incremental break even" analysis -- I cut that out of this article as it was too long, in hindsight I now realise I should have left it in there as your question has made me realise now why I included it in my intial article. See http://www.nofuture.org.uk/fml/ (select "Skills -> Learning Skill Analysis")
L1: 21'000 (6 days)
L2: 462'000 (12 days)
L3: 1'012'000 (25 days)
L4: 1'656'000 (39 days)
L5: 4'800'000 (107 days)
"This is the number of points (and an approx number of days) you must subsequently invest in skills from this category to make learning this level of the skill worthwhile assuming you have already invested enough skill points to break even on your current skill level."
- Excuse the poorly written description there, that's probably part of the reason I cut it -- but it's what you're saying about stopping at L4 in this instance I think.
I focus on the fact that the L5 learning skill is completely "paid for" at the end of the learning schedule, but you are right that you could have stopped at L4 and and made a small profit at the end of this schedule, but in doing do justifying L5 afterwards becomes very difficult.
Perhaps I should amend the article to put the incremental analysis back into it, I was wary of making an already lengthy arctile too long though :)
Don -- Yup, your last comment is spot on (re: optimal profit that is)
ReplyDeleteMy previous comment was before I'd seen that comment.